tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post3509968327018805763..comments2023-10-26T09:46:52.936-04:00Comments on Nathan Barontini's Blog: Of Vatican 2, the Gates of Hell, Traditionalists, and ProtestantsNathan Barontinihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149641876919091106noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-57892160079213886212014-08-28T22:22:38.789-04:002014-08-28T22:22:38.789-04:00Stan, remember the wise words of Card. Newman, &qu...Stan, remember the wise words of Card. Newman, "ten thousand difficulties do not make a doubt." We can trust that the Church is right, even when we don't ourselves quite understand how. In such cases, a Catholic struggling with many "difficulties" is still in communion with the Church, for they believe all the Church does, even if they don't yet fully understand the 'why.'Nathan Barontinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149641876919091106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-79732391419159068902014-08-28T21:30:24.508-04:002014-08-28T21:30:24.508-04:00Thanks for clarifying the confusion. I must be a h...Thanks for clarifying the confusion. I must be a heterodox Catholic trying to pray my way to orthodoxy. Although I want to be orthodox, I struggle with doctrinal skepticism. Prayer, reading, Scripture, and the Sacraments have kept me trusting and hoping in Christ. I realize, however, that "all things work for good for those who love God" (Romans 8:28), so this must be part of His plan. I look forward to reading through your blog. Grace and peace to you, Nathan. Stan Blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12076567688318349757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-7816989562406527522014-08-28T21:28:13.699-04:002014-08-28T21:28:13.699-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stan Blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12076567688318349757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-58411586950818042612014-08-28T20:31:57.371-04:002014-08-28T20:31:57.371-04:00Thanks Stan. I'm not entirely comfortable with...Thanks Stan. I'm not entirely comfortable with the importation of political labels into the Church - primarily because they tend to increase confusion rather than clarify positions. For example, what is a "hyper-Catholic?" or, for that matter, a "liberal-to-moderate" Catholic. The best categories to use are the ones the Church developed herself, those who are in full communion (orthodox Catholics) and those who are not (heterodox Catholics). The difference between these groups is whether or not the Catholic accepts all the Church believes. If so, they are orthodox, if not they are heterodox (and not in full communion). Catholics can be "conservative" and be heterodox (e.g. SSPX, sedevacantists) and Catholics can be "liberal" and be heterodox (e.g. Mario Cuomo, Nancy Pelosi, Catholics for Choice, Catholic Women Priests, etc). The key is whether or not you submit to the authority of the Magisterium of the Church or whether you choose to set yourself up as the highest authority. God bless.Nathan Barontinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149641876919091106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-77385782655733188582014-08-28T18:26:32.655-04:002014-08-28T18:26:32.655-04:00This is a thought-provoking post, Nathan, and a to...This is a thought-provoking post, Nathan, and a topic I don't hear many people discuss. It is the Body of Christ that makes the Church something it is not, Jesus Christ always remains the same in His mercy and love. I am one of the liberal-to-moderate Catholics who view the hyper-Catholics with loving skepticism. We need to focus more on living our lives as a model of Christ and frequently partaking in the Sacraments rather than arguing about the things we "hate" about the post-Vatican II Church. We are all fall short and are not worthy of God's grace. Thanks be to God for Jesus Christ's salvific love on the cross. Peace.Stan Blackburnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12076567688318349757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-1367245401458032972014-08-28T12:10:20.519-04:002014-08-28T12:10:20.519-04:00Nicely said Aquinas Dad.Nicely said Aquinas Dad.Nathan Barontinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149641876919091106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-36235426004738939272014-08-28T12:10:01.104-04:002014-08-28T12:10:01.104-04:00Thanks for the thoughts, Liz. A few points. First,...Thanks for the thoughts, Liz. A few points. First, to your dislike for some of the changes to the Mass. I'd note 1) Vatican 2 didn't change any of the things you mentioned. They were changed in the aftermath of Vat 2, but you'll look in vain to find a rejection of old hymns, calls for the priest to face the people, a denial that Christ instituted the Mass, etc in any document of Vatican 2. Second, to your idea that Vatican 2 must be "heretical" because some Catholics left the Church after the Council, "you will know them by their fruit." Look at the "fruit" of Trent (500 yrs of separation from the formerly Catholic Protestants, which still hasn't been healed). Does that mean Trent taught "heresy?" Look at the "fruit" of Nicaea (most of the world becoming Arian). Does that mean Nicaea was wrong when it proclaimed Jesus God? Of course not, because there will always be Catholics who prefer to leave the Church to found one they like better. The existence of schismatics and heretics is no black-eye on an Ecumenical Council, it's a black eye on those who refuse to heed the voice of Mother Church. Besides, the "Traditional Latin Mass" is still validly celebrated in the Church. If you want you are free to attended it (as I frequently do myself). But leaving the Church because you "HATE!" some things about it? I'd be more careful about the eternal state of my soul than that.Nathan Barontinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149641876919091106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-46190486210924977882014-08-28T10:52:02.148-04:002014-08-28T10:52:02.148-04:00Liz,
Let us then look at Vatican I - after all, ...Liz,<br /> Let us then look at Vatican I - after all, many priests and laymen were upset by *that* council; schismatic movements arguing against that council's dogmatic statement split to form at least 2 schismatic sects that reject Rome, etc.Does the 'fruit of Vatican I' mean much other than people will look for excuses?<br /> No, it doesn't. Aquinas Dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16760282282923079133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8676538176679335464.post-63772801356176891552014-08-28T10:15:19.599-04:002014-08-28T10:15:19.599-04:00We should be concerned with anything "heretic...We should be concerned with anything "heretical" in Vatican II. Was there such heresy among the thousands of pages? I have not studied the document. But what was the FRUIT of Vatican II? You will know them by their fruit. Personally I saw many Catholics leave the Church so Vatican II did result in a split of sorts, lack of Catholic cohesion among those who really believed the Mass had been instituted by Christ at the Last Supper and therefore could not be changed (the words of consecration were changed and this is a biblical matter) and so there is validity on this point. I don't care whether the priest faces me or the altar. No matter. That was a matter of the priest standing in intercession in a physical posture or the priest standing in embrace. That is stylistic because the priest intercedes no matter what. As to the shortening of the Canon of the mass? I HATE IT! Where are the prayers for the Saints? By Name? The New Confiteor? HATE IT! Where is the ABSOLUTION from the priest? So that those who did not get to confession can be absolved of their sins right then and there before Consuming the Eucharist? And was the Mass shortened out of convenience of modern day life because I think the mass should be longer so we can stay on our knees more? Well, these are the main issues for me about Vatican II. And of course, the Old hymns. Some of these new hymns, well they just stink. They really do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com